"But more Americans have been killed EVERY YEAR by cops than servicemen have died in Afghanistan."
I call absolute BULLSHIT on that.
Where's your proof that this is true? Cite it or retract it.
Anyone else see the blatant disrespect for citizens here? Not only does he claim I am a liar, but ORDERS me to do something about it. The great thing about the internet is that it lets everyone have a voice.
Well Officer, my reply was made in comments, and my numbers still hold up. If you want to call "bullshit" then you need to prove me wrong. And you CAN'T do that. At best you can play cop games and say "well if they weren't resisting they wouldn't have been shot" or "if they hadn't been fleeing from the police then the police wouldn't have had to crash their cop car into an innocent bystander" which in and of itself complete and utter bullshit.
You can try to spin the blame for the deaths onto others, but at the end of the day it was a COP firing the gun and a COP behind the wheel. And sometimes it is the COP who kneels on an innocent mans neck and causes him to die from asphyxiation. And rarely, ever so rarely will we the little people win in civil court for a cash settlement, allowing the COPS to continue to murder people with a "never go to jail" card because they are "the only ones."
The more I think about the complete arrogance of TheBronze's the more I think he is one of the "Fourth" types of Cops and Soldiers. I mean, why else would he choose the Deceptecon icon for his avatar? Remember the Deceptecon cop car in the movie "Transformers" with the motto "To Punish and Enslave" written on the side? Man, evidently "to serve and protect" really is a thing of a bygone generation.
30 comments:
Most cops I know are type three: good people trying to do the right thing for their community. In light of the recent headlines, and everytime I read Balko...I'm tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater and file them all away as the arm of a tyrannical government. It's not so late in the game that this is true. Don't get me wrong, the silence of good officers is to be viewed and outed (and punished?) as endorsement of the actions of corrupt fellow officers and superiors.
Sometimes all you have to do to be an oathbreaker is to do nothing.
But right now...RIGHT NOW...I want to caution our community of patriots to not see EVERY badge as a target. I have friends and family that are GOOD people still trying to do the right thing. Be careful of calling all cops bullies...and celebrating the death of an officer...or 'the only good pig is a dead pig' mentality. It's irresponsible, dangerous and it's just not true...yet.
HB
The legal fiction that allows soldiers to go to war and kill people free from prosecution for murder is not the same as the legal fiction that allows cops to murder citizens without consequence. However there are more SOLDIERS in jail for violating the law of land warfare than there are COPS in jail for murdering US Citizens. Don't make me pull out statistics on this "TheBronze" because you KNOW that it is true.
The "rules" that have been created to shield cops from criminal prosecution for misconduct on the job needs to be stripped away. If cops are above the law then THERE IS NO LAW.
This isn't about the good intention of a "silent majority" of police officers. This is about justice and the very basis of civilization.
I think there are more bad police than people realize. For every LEO who is a bad cop, there are several who are covering for him and helping him get away with it. In my opinion, they are just as bad.
I call on "The Bronze" to prove his case. The burden of proof is on him, since he's "calling bullshit".
Cops are not soldiers, they are citizens and civilians like the rest of us. It torques me off when I hear LEO say "civilian".
When a cop kills a citizen, he should be liable criminally if there is no absolute justification (i.e.- the same justification that would allow me to kill another citizen).
The "silent majority" proves its utter impotence and irrelevance every time a cop kills a citizen unjustly and suffers only administrative or professional repercussions.
It's not just the "silent majority", it is the "complicit majority". If I remained "silent" when I had knowledge of a crime, I would be up for charges. If I defended (ie wall of silence), the guilty, I would be an accessory or an accomplice, or obstructing justice.
As AM stated, until the double standard is removed, the rule of law is all but dead. It truly is "us" vs. "them", until the time comes once again where LEO and citizens are on the same side. This can only be done by action and choices on the part of all LEO.
"The Silent Majority" isn't enough.
I will repeat your claim as well, that the between dying servicemen in combat and citizens murdered by LEO, the greatest threat to Americans' lives is at the hands of the LEO.
Your blog. The burden of proof is on the "Bronze", the guy who challenged your assertion. I hope he comes back instead of merely firing shots over his shoulder while running away.
AP
I just think we should be careful not to condemn the whole law enforcement community for these crimes. Wouldn't that be akin to all Patriots being condemned by the actions of extremists? Us vs Them goes both ways...and I'd like to not be lumped in with white supremacists and anarchists.
"If cops are above the law then THERE IS NO LAW."
I disagree. There is still God's law, and there is still the Constitution. Are we really going to ignore morals and the law of the land because tyrants refuse to abide by those codes? Seems hypocritical.
Hey, thanks for the chance to speak out on your blog. Appreciate what you guys do...really.
Anom 1:56 - It seems the same argument is being used by the Muslim community. If the majority does nothing to stand against the few bad apples who is guilty of the crime. The bad will continue until the GOOD guys quit participating with or condoning the few...
ForceResponse,
Thank you for training new shooters. That is probably a lot more useful act than what I am employed to do.
But appealing to "God's Law" won't win in the courts. The concept of "natural law" is dead in the US. The Constitution implicitly recognizes "natural law" but how is that Fourth Amendment working for you? Too bad we can't resist unlawful entry according to the Supreme Court.
You TRAIN people to resist home invasion. It isn't hypocrisy if both cops and criminals do the SAME ACT of HOME INVASION often wearing the SAME gear (military surplus) and the cops just say "roll over and try to enjoy being raped" as to how to respond to the sudden violation of your home and family?
When the chips are down, will that "good cop" break the code of silence on the "thin blue line" to bring up the "bad apple" to criminal charges?
So far History tells us that the answer is no. A Nazi fighting honorably on the front lines was still upholding the SS and death camps. You don't fight evil by only targeting the SS, sometimes you have to take on the whole war machine.
And as far as being "lumped in" with the racists, we already are. They call us "nativists" or "tea partiers" and you can check the SPLC website for yourself on that one.
When the whole of cops stops acting like a band of thugs and behaving honorably then they will sort themselves out and get rid of the bad apples. Until then, they are just another band of thugs who protect their own, even the bad apples, and screw everyone else.
Bullies is not the term that explains the "us against them" mentality. When the chips go down they are complicit by lies or omission and the civilian be damned. No exceptions.
I like a quote by Louis Brandeis; "Our government teaches the whole people by its example. If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy". That's the way we're heading.
"I disagree. There is still God's law, and there is still the Constitution. Are we really going to ignore morals and the law of the land because tyrants refuse to abide by those codes? Seems hypocritical."
Law being defined, in my case, as the strictures that both constrain and refine us.
Good luck with "God's Law", in court or on the gurney.
AP
Suggested reading:
Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland
Many of your neighbors, in uniform and not, will want you dead, or at least to stop causing problems.
Ask the East Germans what they learned about informers when the Stasi files were opened.
CA
AM - I agree with your assessments of what's happening. We are witnessing a historic moment...a tragic violation of our rights that will need to be responded to. Don't mistake me here. I'm not absolving Pima County or Indiana SC or the Kentucky case that went to SCOTUS or any of this nonsense. But I think we have different RESPONSES in mind. I just won't want any of us to lose ourselves in this. I fully anticipate headlines to start reporting Patriotic responses to these injustices...but will they read "Man answers door to illegal police raid with safety off" or will they read "Man indiscriminately targeting law enforcement". At least consider collateral damage. WE MUST NOT BE THE BAD GUYS.
And, brother...it's great to empower new shooters. After two tours in A'Stan there's nothing I'd rather be doing. Come back safe, okay?
AP - I'll take God's law to the grave with me, yes. But what I meant by God's law is the manner in which a man governs himself. Does he seek revenge, or does he seek freedom? I simply think that us patriots need to count to ten right now.
You shoot better groups when you're not emotional.
If we're going to go off half-cocked, mad as hell at any blue suit we see because they asked for it...well, you first.
pardon my french but
FUCK THE POLICE
I thought this might fit in the discussion
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110606/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_syria
Try this site:
http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/
To AM,
After reading many of your postings and thought. I only hope and pray the majority of the people in our military have even half the wisdom, and the moral courage you do. Even if they don't speak openly as you do, I hope within themselves they see the same and arrive at the same conclusions.
If so, then no matter what the future brings, regardless of how bad it's going to be. Some of our worst fears will not come to pass.
"Well Officer, my reply was made in comments, and my numbers still hold up. If you want to call "bullshit" then you need to prove me wrong."
No I don't. You're the one that made the charge and I told you to back it up or retract. You still haven't.
"The more I think about the complete arrogance of TheBronze's the more I think he is one of the "Fourth" types of Cops and Soldiers."
So I'm arrogant because I called you on your fallacious charge? Good one. Yep, you caught me nut-job. You don't know anything about me but you've determined who and what I am? You're classy.
"Don't make me pull out statistics on this "TheBronze" because you KNOW that it is true."
Go a head. That's what I asked you to do in the first place. I'm betting you can't statistically back up anything you said. You'd just prefer to throw out a bunch of BS without backing it up with facts. Then to confuse your minions, you throw it back on me and tell me to prove it. Unfortunately, I'm not the one that has to prove it, you are.
I think if you make a claim you should back it up with facts. Your statment is no different than if I said you were a sexual predator who like little boys and posted it everywhere without backing it up with facts. While I do not know for sure if you are one or not, it is not for me to prove under you way of thinking, but for you to prove you are not. Where there are no valid facts to support a position than it is nothing more than an opinion not a truth.
While I do not care for "The Broze" saying on his profile that he is in "waste management", it is his right to state his opinion. Does not mean he is correct though. I kind of suspect that it may very well refect why he is no longer in law enforcement. As far as the term "The Bronze" it come from the movie "Mad Max" not Transformers.
As far as criminal cop not being punished, you only have to look as far as the Texas Department of Criminal Justice and you will find they have a whole unit just for former cops who thought they were above the law. Do some criminal cop get away with thier crimes, yes just like some regular criminals do as well. The system is not perfect but it is the best out there currently in our world.
In closing there are alot of hard working cops out there who still understand the meaning of being a public servant.
If there are any cops who are NOT brain dead sadistic bastards who get their orgasms from beating or murdering citizens, then they are the exceptions now.
How many motherhumping cops does it take to murder a US Marine in his home? Ask the TWAT team. Gutless bastards.
Slob please link the story. I would like to see all the facts first, just not your slanted view. This is the problem with people on the far left and far right, they are blinded by thier own preconcieve notions of the facts before ever seeing any facts.
I suspect this is the story you are talking about out of Arizona. There were mistakes made here by the officers involved and someone was killed who should not have been killed. Looks like some bad investigative work leading up to the raid. Mind you the below version is from the Huffington Post!
"As the SWAT team forced its way into his home, Guerena, a former Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, armed himself with his AR-15 rifle and told his wife and son to hide in a closet. As the officers entered, Guerena confronted them from the far end of a long, dark hallway. The police opened fire, releasing more than 70 rounds in about 7 seconds, at least 60 of which struck Guerena. He was pronounced dead a little over an hour later."
Here is some of that data you wanted the Bronze to provide. From 2005 to 2009 there were 1915 Justifiable Homicides by LE in the U.S. During the same time there were 1217 Justified Homicides by citizens other than LE. In 2009 alone 13636 people were murdered within the U.S., this does not include above Justifiable Homicides. It is also estimated approxinately 200 people die every year in the U.S. from LE other than Justified Homicides.
Combining the LE Justified Homicides and deaths by other means for the years 2005 through 2009, the total is 2915.
To date over 4500 U.S. service members have lost thier lives in Iraq since the invasion in 2003. As well since the invasion an estimated 150,000 iraqi citizens have died as a direct result of the war.
There has also been numerous incidents of service members committing theft, rape, and murder of unarmed Iraqi and Afghan citizens since the beginning the war on terrorism. I do not think there are any incidents in th U.S. where LE has killed an unarmed citizen for following to close behind the patrol car, but it happen on a regular basis in Iraq and still is happening in Afghanistan. There is a group of soldier currently on trial for running their own death squad in Afghanistan where they would cut off body parts as trophies. Pretty certain no cases of LE doing this in the U.S.
Some human rights groups have said the U.S. Military is responsible for over 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq alone. Where thes people murdered or was it and accident. I guess it depends on which side your on. We say accident, they say murder. Hmm!
Ok now the fact you are serving in the U.S. Army and claim to be a Mercenary. This is interesting since it tell me you serve for money or maybe using Uncle Sam to get a college degree only and not love of country.
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/homicide.html
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_14.html
Dragon Dan said:
To date over 4500 U.S. service members have lost thier lives in Iraq since the invasion in 2003.
ERRRRT! Wrong answer -- RTFP (Read The Friggin' Post) beofre respoding with the Pravda Propaganda.
Thde original statement was:
"But more Americans have been killed EVERY YEAR by cops than servicemen have died in Afghanistan."
The number for the actual combat zone in question is (as of latest figures) 1613 servicemen killed in OP ENDURING FREEDOM (Afghanistan and area, not including Iraq) (including non-combat deaths such as suicide and vehicular accident) Sep 2001 - Jun 2011 (just shy of a ten year span). If we use only deaths in Afghanistan, it's even lower -- 1467, with an additional 48 who died of wounds/injuries * in Germany or the States
You provided LEO kills for 2005 - 2009 (five years).
So more US civilians were killed by cops in five years than US servicemen were in nearly ten years in Afghanistan. . .
If we parse out only the years that you provided LEO data for, total US deaths in Afghanistan works out to 786 in or as a result of Afghanistan service.
So, 786 US service deaths (average of 157/year) during the 5 year period where US LEOs killed 2115 people (1915 "justifiable" homicides + YOUR estimated 200 "other" homicides), for an annual average of 423 killed by US LEOs per year for 2005-2009.
Oh, and Afghanistan KIA (including DOW) is only 1264 from 11 Sep 2001 - 26 May 2011.
The MAJORITY of Afghanistan US-service deaths has been during the Obama Administration -- yup, more died from Jan 2009 - Jun 2011 (less than 2.5 years)than from Sep 2001 - Dec 2008 (less than 7.5 years)
Geo,
It is an apple to oranges argument. American citizens killed more people under justified conditions than American troops have died in Afhganistan, so what is the point. The whole thing is idiotic to compare.
There are over 700.000 LE officers in the U.S.
U.S. Troop levels in Afghanistan
2002 5,200
2003 10,400
2004 15,200
2005 19,100
2006 20,400
2007 23,700
2008 30,100
2009 50,700
2010 63,500
2011 63,500
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R40682.pdf
2001 to present:
1613 total deaths of U.S. Servicemen in Afghanistan.
During the same time 1718 LE Officers also died in the line of duty.
http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html
So again what is the point?
Know let ask the question how many unarmed Afghans men, women, and childrem have died at the hands of the U.S. Military during that time?
2001 to 2009 only
9,024 documented cases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_caused_by_ISAF_and_US_Forces_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
So again the point is what?
Correction:
Now let ask the question how many unarmed Afghans men, women, and childrem have died at the hands of the U.S. Military during that time?
2001 to 2009 only
9,024 documented cases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_caused_by_ISAF_and_US_Forces_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
So again the point is what?
WOW!
700,000 LE Officers
423 citizens a year killed (justified and by other means)
63,000 troops in Afghanistan
1002 unarmed citizens accidentally killings a year on average.
Not sure which is worst!
Maybe soldiers are killing more people than cops because.... they're fighting a war(!) and a big part of warfare is killing people(!!!) this may come as a shock to some but warfare and law enforcement are not the same thing.
FTB,
These are numbers reported by the .gov on the number of accidental killings by U.S. Military, not enemy deaths. Yes the purpose of war is to kill the enemy, not women and children. The fact we do not go out with then intent on killing women and children is what seperates the U.S. Military from all those 3rd world militaries.
What is the difference between these and accidental killings by LE in the U.S. That is my point!
Accidents do happen even in LE.
You want good cops you have to have good elected PUBLIC SERVANTS. To have that you have to sweep your local governments clean using the emergency recall election process. Find a reason, scandalize the hell out of the enemy and get the vote out. Network through the community. Once you're all in, you clean house, fire all the bureaucrats and oath traitors. Then you will have good cops enforcing good laws.
Sounds a lot better than engaging them with rifle fire from concealed positions and inviting every cop in the state to hunt your ass down.
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